现代的比利时人是怎么评价利奥波德二世的？ 第1页

我对这个问题也挺感兴趣，于是在Quora上找到了这两个问题：How do Belgium people feel about their king Leopold II after all the massacres in Congo?（在刚果的大屠杀之后，比利时人民对利奥波德二世国王有何看法？）以及What do Belgians think of Leopold II?（比利时人如何看待利奥波德二世？）

回答也不多，我就摘录其中几个比利时人写的。

To be honest they would rather not know.
Belgium is a very internally divided country with lots of blame flying around.
What a king did at a time when most people here were exploited themselves is something they feel they are not connected to. Only in 1893 did Belgium cease to be an effective dictatorship in which only men who were wealthy could vote. But wealthy men could still vote multiple times. (Women couldn’t vote at all until 1948.) Also, Leopold never brought back wealth to ordinary Belgians. The only thing he did was to build monstrosities everywhere.
Sometimes the surviving “colonists” of old are conjured up as the bogeymen. This is historically inaccurate. King Leopold never set a foot in the Congo! Only a couple of thousand Belgians were present there. It was called the Système Indirecte (indirect system). A combination of extreme brutality (guns vs. spears) and corruption. You buy off the tribal and village heads and if there is an insurrection anyway, you kill those with warrior tribes and other mercenaries. Those infamous hands that were cut off were done so by Black people (under orders of course by Whites), as a proof of kill. But they often left the victims live.
This system was noticeably less brutal under most of Belgian rule (1908–1960), with the exception of the WW2 years, when slavery was reintroduced — because Allied tanks needed rubber and Hiroshima needed uranium. That said, it was still blatantly exploitative. Then in the 1950s, Belgium overcame its fear of “n*ggerified Whites” (actual quote!) and let in 100,000 or so people in her colony, mostly working-class. Rule became less centralized and so also less cruel. Still, the minerals were being looted and workers were underpaid. In 1960, because of mismanagement of once peaceful protests, Belgium tried to wash their hands like Pontius Pilate of “colonialism” while retaining Katanga (where the mines were concentrated) through a pawn (Tshombe). They sabotaged and killed PM Lumumba and the men in the suits in Brussels who made these decissions shiftend blame to the Belgians who had to flee with just the clothes on their bodies, and to the “savage” nature of the locals.
This tragic tale continues. Who among you knew that in 1994 France’s president Mittérand and his foreign minister Alain Juppé were [extremely likely to be, yet unproven in the courts] guilty of helping organize the Rwandese genocide?

大致意思就是大多数人宁愿不知道这些，因为国王做的事情跟他们无关，刚果是国王的私人领地。比利时人也苦啊，也被剥削，国王挣得钱全都大兴土木去了。当然比利时政府在接管刚果之后虽然比国王做得好，但干的也是剥削压榨的事情。

I don't think you'll find a single person (ok, perhaps a few nutcases, but not a single sane person) who will defend those massacres. I even feel a bit insulted for you calling that man 'my king’. He is not my king, he wasn't elected and my ancestors, who were poor farmers, felt exploited themselves by the rich elite, so he wasn't even their king.
However, there are still some people who defend colonisation. My father in law for instance grew up in Congo. His father was a good guy, who never hurt anyone and was actually quite popular with the Congolese. Does that justify colonisation? Absolutely not in my eyes, but for my father in law it's very hard to admit that his whole childhood was based on exploitation and suppression.

这个我就直译了：我不认为你会找到一个人（好吧，也许是几个疯子，但不是一个理智的人）来捍卫那些大屠杀。 我至今为你称那个人为“我的国王”而感到有些侮辱。然而，仍有一些人为殖民主义辩护。 例如，我的岳父在刚果长大。 他的父亲是个好人，从不伤害任何人，实际上很受刚果人的欢迎。 这能证明殖民是正当的吗？ 在我看来绝对不是，但对于我岳父来说，很难承认他的整个童年都是建立在剥削和压制的基础上的。

I think he is a man with a pretty appalling human rights record. I venture to guess that most Belgians would agree with that, but a large chunk of the population is frankly not informed about the brutality of his colonial enterprise

我认为他是一个有着相当骇人听闻的人权记录的人。 我冒昧地猜测大多数比利时人会同意这一点，但坦率地说，很大一部分人不知道他的殖民事业的残酷性

In 1965, I was 17 years old and all I knew about the Belgian Congo is, all we did, Belgians, to help those poor people from the Arabian slave trade.
I also knew about the Congo, from my father, a military pilot, who flew often between Belgium and the Belgian Congo, in the 1950s.
Then, in 1965, at school, five years after the independence of Congo, someone came to tell us everything we did wrong in our former Colony. I was shocked!
For example, we cut the hand of those who didn’t wanted to work for us. No, it was not only Leopold II, it was all the Belgians who went there to plunder the country from its natural resources.
Why do we buy Belgian chocolate? It’s made with Congolese cacao beans! Shouldn’t we rather buy Congolese chocolate?

1965 年，我 17 岁，我所知道的关于比利时刚果的一切，就是我们所做的一切，比利时人，帮助那些摆脱阿拉伯奴隶贸易的穷人。我还从我父亲那里知道刚果，他是一名军事飞行员，他经常在 1950 年代在比利时和比利时刚果之间飞行。然后，1965 年，在刚果独立五年后的学校里，有人来告诉我们我们在前殖民地做错的一切。 我惊呆了！例如，我们砍掉了那些不想为我们工作的人的手。 不，不仅是利奥波德二世，所有比利时人都去那里掠夺该国的自然资源。我们为什么要买比利时巧克力？ 它是用刚果可可豆制成的！ 我们不应该买刚果巧克力吗？

I personally see him as a man who achieved a lot in his life, he built a lot of monumental buildings in Belgium and he had an entire colony for himself, not for Belgium but for himslef.
Now, the way he treated the locals was awefully cruel, at least so they say. He had never actually been in Congo during his life. However the way these poor people were treated was sort of his idea, at least he didn't mind the way they were treated.
Also, he was king from 1865 to 1909 in the middle of industrialiation. Industrialistion brought a lot of wealth for only a small group of people but the factory workers led a life of extreme poverty which he also didn't seem to mind since he didn't do anything against it.
These two examples make me think he is a bit of a selfish bstard.
Also, what other people don't really know about him is that he had plans to attack the Netherlands. While would have been a war that Belgium could have won since their land-forces were superior to the Dutch ( The Dutch were superior at sea though ) It seems to me like a crazy idea ( also impossible because Belgium had sworn neutrlity at all times at it's independence ).
So I as a Belgian think Leopold II was a crazy bastard even thouh I don't feel any hate for him. Other Belgians don't really care about him as far as I know.

我个人认为他是一个在他的一生中取得了很多成就的人，他在比利时建造了许多不朽的建筑，他为自己拥有了一个完整的殖民地，不是为了比利时，而是为了他自己。现在，他对待当地人的方式非常残忍，至少他们是这么说的。他一生中从未真正去过刚果。不过对待这些穷人的方式，倒是他的想法，至少他不介意他们的待遇。此外，他于 1865 年至 1909 年在工业化中期担任国王。工业化只为一小部分人带来了很多财富，但工厂工人过着极度贫困的生活，他似乎也不介意，因为他没有做任何反对它的事情。

这两个例子让我觉得他有点自私。

此外，其他人并不真正了解他的是他计划袭击荷兰。虽然这本来是一场比利时本可以赢得的战争，因为他们的陆地部队优于荷兰人（尽管荷兰人在海上更胜一筹）在我看来这是一个疯狂的想法（也是不可能的，因为比利时在任何时候都宣誓中立这是独立性）。所以我作为一个比利时人认为利奥波德二世是一个疯狂的混蛋，即使我对他没有任何仇恨。据我所知，其他比利时人并不真正关心他。

Not so many people here know very much about it.
They know Congo used to be a “colony” but that’s pretty much where it would stop.
Most people here have no idea how many millions of people died due to his policies.
In terms of “how do Belgians feel about it” ; Congolese people have migrated here and they are one of the major minorities. They are doing way better than other minorities like the Moroccans for example.
The Congolese crimes is not something which gets much debate.
Many people today are born after it all happened.
So if you ask that question here you should very likely educate the locals here before they can express their feelings.
I do myself totally condemn what happened in Congo, but it’s useless to feel guilty because it doesn’t solve any problem.
I did not choose to be born here you know.

这里没有多少人对此非常了解。

他们知道刚果曾经是一个“殖民地”，但他们的认知就到此为止。

这里的大多数人不知道有多少万人死于他的政策。

就“比利时人对此有何看法”而言； 刚果人已经迁移到这里，他们是主要的少数民族之一。 例如，他们比摩洛哥人等其他少数民族做得更好。

刚果的罪行并没有引起太多争论。

今天很多人都是在这一切发生之后出生的。

所以如果你在这里问这个问题，你很可能应该先教育这里的当地人，然后他们才能表达自己的感受。

我自己完全谴责刚果发生的事情，但内疚是没有用的，因为它不能解决任何问题。

我没有选择在这里出生你知道的。

Leopold II owned (in a corporate partnership) the Congo Free State as a private person, not as a monarch. Hence, whatever his misdeeds, they have nothing more to do with the Belgian people than do the misdeeds of any other private person.
Belgians, and especially the Belgian parliament, never wanted anything to do with his African schemes, but could do nothing since he acted as a private investor/person.
Therefore, I would say that Belgians do not give a fig for Leopold II either way, not for his purported misdeeds, guilty or not. And they are tired of hearing others, who seem to know little about this, pontificating and working themselves up into what they think to be a righteous conniption.

利奥波德二世以私人而非君主的身份拥有（在企业合伙中）刚果自由邦。 因此，无论他的罪行是什么，他们与比利时人民的关系都与其他任何私人的罪行无关。

比利时人，尤其是比利时议会，从来不想与他的非洲计划有任何关系，但由于他是私人投资者/个人，所以无能为力。

因此，我想说比利时人无论如何都不会为利奥波德二世有什么触动，而不是因为他声称的不法行为，无论是否有罪。 他们厌倦了听到其他人，他们似乎对此知之甚少，自诩为他们认为是正义的东西而自言自语。

When I was in Brussels, I did ask a number of locals, and for the most part they don't care for him.
If anything they said he was a horrible colonial ruler.. They don't care much for him, he's not revered or idolized… just one of many monsters that era of the world produced.

当我在布鲁塞尔的时候，我确实问了一些当地人，但大多数情况下他们并不关心他。

如果他们说他是一个可怕的殖民统治者的话。他们不太关心他，他没有受到尊敬或崇拜……只是那个时代产生的众多怪物之一。

I, and other well-informed countrymen, think he was a megalomaniac, selfish monster. In the case of the Congo, this was a colony he carved out for himself, not his country. It was his own, personal property, that he exploited in a very cruel way through his "agents" on the continent. Later he SOLD it to the Belgian state.
In the capital, Brussels, he had the courthouse ("The Palace of Justice") built "to rival St.Peter's Cathedral in Rome." Need I say more?

我和其他见多识广的同胞认为他是一个自大自私的怪物。 就刚果而言，这是他为自己而不是他的国家开辟的殖民地。 这是他自己的个人财产，他通过他在大陆的“代理人”以非常残酷的方式剥削。 后来他把它卖给了比利时政府。

在首都布鲁塞尔，他建造了“与罗马的圣彼得大教堂相媲美”的法院（“正义宫”）。 需要我多说？

看完之后，从这些回答中我提炼出来的信息就是：大多数人对此无感、认为他这事儿做的不地道但国王行为勿上升到人民、比利时人可没从中没捞到好处。

其实也很正常，指望今日比利时人对利奥波德二世的行为哭天抢地捶胸顿足也不现实，毕竟刚果人也没打进布鲁塞尔拿枪指着比利时人让他们人人表态忏悔。而且利奥波德二世这人确实是个沉溺于声色犬马的国王，比利时人本身就不是很待见他。

2020年美国黑人弗洛伊德被虐杀后，比利时也掀起了反对利奥波德二世的运动，多座雕像被泼红漆或遭移除。