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八里桥蒙古骑兵为什么打不赢锡克骑兵? 第1页

  

user avatar   sun-hang-67 网友的相关建议: 
      

因为和清军骑兵交战的主体,就是英法联军的步兵和炮兵,联军的骑兵不过是在火炮把清军击溃得差不多后,去清理残兵败将而已。

去看一下当年英法联军的战地笔记就很明确了。

==================

八里桥之战期间,僧格林沁不知道哪根筋搭错了,让清军骑着马,去冲英法联军的火枪、火炮阵地,然后在离联军50米远的地方停下来,对着联军射箭。

[1]

结果你懂得,英法联军一顿火枪扫射,清军骑兵直接人仰马翻一大片。

[2]

随着联军的火炮就位,战斗很快就变成一边倒的碾压。信号弹都能打乱清军骑兵,更别说是后面真正的炮弹了。

清军的最大问题是炮兵太垃圾,根本打不中英法联军。

联军的骑兵突击的时候,清军早已经被火炮轰成傻子了。

然后,僧格林沁就在八里桥玩骡车漂移了。

================

顺便,没有什么清军英勇的说法。

英法联军对清军的评价,说他们就像家里的老鼠,除非被堵住了逃不掉,才会拼命咬人,否则永远都是跑路优先。

当时清军的勇敢,大都出于环境的特殊性。被英法联军包围后,无路可退,只能放手一搏,决死一战。

[3]

法军的统帅,八里桥伯爵蒙托邦,更是直接表示清军的骑兵不是特别勇敢,而且武器落后,仍然是冷兵器为主。

[4]

而八里桥之战,周围都是各种平原,很明显没有能让清军变得“英勇”的条件。

参考

  1. ^ [法]乔治·德·克鲁勒《进军北京》
  2. ^ [法]皮埃尔·马蒂埃《从巴黎到八里桥》
  3. ^ [英]斯温霍《1860年华北战役纪要》
  4. ^ [法]夏尔·库赞·蒙托邦《蒙托邦征战中国回忆录》

user avatar   gu-si-ta-fu-54 网友的相关建议: 
      

首先得确定以锡克人为主的印度骑兵(里面还有普什图人/帕坦人等其他民族)的位置和动向,然后才能分析具体战况。话不多说,先上个法军官史里的八里桥会战地图:

于是,读者不难找到红色英军里的锡克骑兵在哪里→联军最左侧的Siks,笔者在这里直接贴出几个局部。

显而易见,锡克骑兵的战斗轨迹跟联军中路、右翼法军的战况基本没什么关系,所以法军参战人员的相关记载算不上是可靠的锡克骑兵目击记录(更何况中西书局那套翻译质量差到人神共愤,比如《从巴黎到八里桥》里头把法军的“火箭”(fusée)翻成“信号弹”),相对而言接近亲历者记述的材料是英军校官克里洛克写于战后第六天的报告。

八里桥之战的第一手材料——克里洛克中校的报告

鞑靼阵地占地范围颇广,左翼依托通州、掩蔽八里桥,右翼位于大约4英里以西的墓园和村庄。战场是一片开阔的平地,无数墓地树林和村庄点缀其中,沟渠和凹路纵横交错,战线上的河滩地里设有大营。
按照各种说法,我军当面的敌军兵力是2.5-4万人,总之一定非常可观。
法军以炮兵在右翼投入战斗,鞑靼骑兵散兵(Tatar cavalry skirmishers)颇为自信地向前推进,用火绳枪射击。他们推进到距离火炮非常近的地方,可一旦遭遇火力,就向右转进,跑到英军炮兵面前,以同样的方式朝着英军炮兵推进,结果几轮葡萄弹[英军对霰弹的俗称]就又迫使他们继续向右转进,穿过一座村庄后,他们已经包抄到我军左翼之外,并以轻快步伐向前推进,一边大呼一边用火绳枪射击。
英军战线此时只是向前列队,炮兵位于右侧,步兵占据了左侧阵地,骑兵则从后方向前运动,绕过左翼横扫出去。
骑兵旅奉命冲击敌军。国王近卫龙骑兵团和费恩骑兵团[锡克人为主的印度骑兵]在普罗宾少校的骑兵团[锡克人为主的印度骑兵]支援下向前推进。英国骑兵一出现在视野里,鞑靼人的欢呼就突然沉寂下去,可还是不断地用火绳枪射击,并没有显露出退却迹象。随着两军骑兵逐步接近,骑兵旅发起冲击,鞑靼人转身离开。
由于深沟和凹路纵横交错,地形并不利于骑兵冲击,尽管如此,此次行动还是大获全胜,杀死了大批敌军。
随后就是全线推进,德·蒙托邦将军指挥法军在右路推进,英军在中路推进,稳步驱逐了当面敌军,不过,此时也有必要在两翼分兵以应对敌方骑兵的动向,敌军骑兵拥有庞大的数量优势,因而能够在这一天里持续不断地威胁我军、包抄我军侧翼。
部队由此分成了三个独立集群:右、中、左。
右路:法军
中路:克罗夫顿准将麾下的炮兵,巴里的3门[阿姆斯特朗]炮、斯特林的3门[6磅]炮)、德斯伯勒的6门[9磅]炮,总计12门炮
国王近卫龙骑兵团的1个连(troop,即半个中队)、第15旁遮普土著步兵团的1个连(company)支援炮兵。
萨顿准将的步兵:第2女王步兵团、第15旁遮普土著步兵团、王家工兵的1个连
左路:由约翰·米切尔爵士和帕特尔准将指挥
国王近卫龙骑兵团(1.5个中队)
费恩骑兵团(2个中队)
普罗宾骑兵团(3个中队)
巴里的3门[阿姆斯特朗]炮
王家陆战队
第99步兵团
霍普[·格兰特]爵士(Sir Hope Grant)主要指挥左路行动,鉴于大批敌军在左路出没,就得一再用非正规[印度]骑兵和阿姆斯特朗炮迎击敌军,迫使敌军退回中路方向。敌军在他们最右边的营地里展开了最后的抵抗,可还是被第99[步兵]团出动部分兵力逐出营地,敌军随后沿着通往北京、与运河平行的道路退却。骑兵向前推进了一小段距离,成功地摧毁了几座营地、仓库,缴获了敌军在退却途中丢弃的17门铜炮。

简而言之,在克里洛克眼中,“鞑靼骑兵”看见火力就转进,被英法火炮轮流招待之后,兜了一个大圈绕到英军左边,结果遭遇骑兵旅的冲击,当场被击溃,他字里行间显然是觉得功劳主要应当记在KDG(国王近卫龙骑兵团)头上。

后来“鞑靼骑兵”仍然在袭扰,不过联军左路的3门阿姆斯特朗炮和5个印度骑兵中队也就足够对付了。当然,联军中的印度人也的确死伤最多:费恩骑兵团14人负伤,普罗宾骑兵团1人战死,第15旁遮普步兵团6人负伤,合计死伤21人,占了英军总损失的67.7%,联军总损失的41.2%。


user avatar   qiong-qiong-luo-luo 网友的相关建议: 
      

因为锡克骑兵有阿姆斯特朗炮掩护呀,蒙古骑兵打得过才怪!


user avatar   hong-hei-se-de-feng 网友的相关建议: 
      

蒙古骑兵和锡克人又没打起来,怎么较量?按照战后僧格林沁和胜保奏折,清军骑兵完全被英法联军有效的火力压制,胜保都说是被打退了,少有的靠近联军间隙基本损失殆尽。按照英法方面就更简单了,大炮主义,如果不够,让英国人再给几门炮。


user avatar   tan-tao-zhan-guo-shi-he-jin-dai-gong-ye 网友的相关建议: 
      

因为满蒙八旗是进攻方。

八里桥满蒙骑兵打得可以了,挺勇的,问题出在指挥官上不是底层士兵。过桥作战的骑兵不少是带着卡宾枪的,带弓的部落兵也有,都是抵近射击,被攻击的法军士兵确实不胜其扰。

但是吧,火枪骑兵没法连射呀,也没有组织起来近战的勇气,或者说没训练过集体近战。

孟加拉骑兵团作为援军,以充沛的体力攻击疲惫的满蒙骑兵将其驱散,这很正常,换法军也一样结果,问题出在后续上,满蒙骑兵退过桥影响了守军士气,都跟着跑了。

孟加拉两个团的骑兵顺利过桥后,又整队集结对清军步兵大队进行冲锋,这个可以看一下回忆录,很有趣。

清军步兵都是临时集结的团练和溃兵绿营,就远远的放了一枪就全崩溃了,接下来就是骑兵追着屁股跑,伤亡加俘虏三千五。

清军败在哪,指挥官不会打近代战争。还有就是炮兵没用好,打了个寂寞,光听响,换成法军,在炮火阶段就能击溃联军步兵,哪里还有孟加拉骑兵发威的机会?


user avatar   hetarre 网友的相关建议: 
      

菜的离谱的是大清的炮兵


user avatar   123-86-48-88 网友的相关建议: 
      

本来想长篇大论,说什么“虽然参与第二次鸦片战争的锡克骑兵,如第 1锡克非正规骑兵(Probyn'sHorse)按照英语国家的划分给算成是非正规骑兵Irregular Cavalry,但那也只是因为执行侦察等任务原因而所谓的“非正规”而已,军队本身是职业化的;而僧格林沁的蒙古马队如何如何……”

但转念想想自己关于二者的资料都不足,以上说辞纯属脑补。还是再找找资料后才有发言权。正巧,有一份报道,提到了这茬。


On the 12th inst., the entire force (with the exception of her Majesty's 99th Regiment, and a corresponding force of French, who remained to garrison Pehtang) marched out from that town to attack the enemy's camp at Sing-ho, the whole of our first division, with the French, advancing by the causeway which extends from Pehtang to Sing-ho, to attack the enemy in front, while our second division struck across the plain, or rather swamp, to turn their left. After about four hours' toiling, splashing. floundering, and panting through mud and water, from ankle to knee deep, the two divisions halted on some comparatively dry ground, about two miles from the enemy's camp, and also from each other—advancing again, after an hour's rest, to the attack.
The first division and French were received with a very hot fire, I believe; but, advancing at the charge, and under cover of their artillery, sustained little damage, and speedily drove the enemy from all their entrenchments. Meanwhile, the Tartar cavalry, to the number of about 3,000 or 4,000, galloped out into the plain, and threatened our second division on every side, but our Armstrong batteries made such havoc among them at ranges which must have appeared to them miraculous, that only in two instances did they venture at all closeonce making a bold dash at one of our batteries, when they were repulsed with heavy loss by a charge of, I believe, Fane's Horse, in which Lieutenat M'Gregor of that corps was severely wounded ; and again, when some seven or eight hundred of them bore down upon our 4th Brigade (consisting of the 67th Regiment and Royal Marines), doubtless with the mild intention of exterminating it, when they got such a peppering, however, from our Enfield rifles that they were sent scampering off in great dismay, and feeling horribly sold, I have no doubt, as it has somehow or other been discovered that they imagined our men were suing for quarter, when they saw them form into “squares” (or what doubtless seemed to them small crowds of frightened and bewildered men) with the front ranks all kneeling, and that therefore they had only to ride boldly and put them all to the sword.
The King's Dragoon Guards and Probyn's Horse also managed to get them within reach somewhere or other in the field (though where or how I have not been able to ascertain exactly), and cut them down " like taps o' thistles,” to the number of about a hundred, I believe.

Apropos of the King's Dragoon Guards, the style in which they turn out here is perfectly marvellous. While the infantry and artil. lery have always a more or less travel-stained appearance (as they well may, considering the sort of work they have had to go through), they turn out as if they were on parade in Hyde Park, and did we not know that they have done as much hard work, and have had to rough it as much as any of the other troops, we might imagine that their whole kit consisted of brushes, pipe-clay, and patent polish, and that their sole duty was to keep up a smart appearance by these means. Fane's and Probyn's Horse also turn out in wonderful style, and present a most dashing and picturesque appearance, compared to which that of the French Spahis (as I think they are called) is simply ridiculous.
Most unworthy foes, too, are the Tartar cavalry, although physically fine enough men, and by no means wanting in pluck-as, indeed, the mere fact of their daring to come out against such troops as ours at all is sufficient to prove. But they are wretchedly mounted, poor fellows, on meagre looking ponies, and still worse armed, their only weapons being either clumsy and not very sharp lances, still more clumsy and blunter swords, matchlocks, or old-fashioned pistols, nearly harmless to all but their owners, and tows and arrows. The uniform of most of those who were killed consisted of a black or purple silk hat, shaped not unlike the now fashionable “Jim Crow," but of stiffer construction, and decorated with a brass ball and a pair of squirrels' tails, and yellow cotton jacket, with black facings, and dark blue cotton trousers, tucked into black silk boots, reaching nearly to the knee. They must have lost at least three or four hundred killed and wounded during the day; whereas our casualties amounted to only twenty-five, not including, however, an unfortuuate party of eighteen coolies, two English orderlies, and a Madras sapper, who were cut off and taken prisoners by the enemy, while bringing commissariat rum from Pehtang.
The enemy dispersed, our army took up a position for the night in and around the captured camp. Probyn's Horse, however, first making a grand foray into the country, and bringing in some 700 or 800 sheep, which enabled most of the exhausted soldiers to make a toler. ably comfortable supper, before “turning in” for the night between the damp ground and the canopy of heaven. During the whole of the following day the troops rested in the same position, while stores were being brought up from Pehtang and a reconnaissance was made in the direction of Tong-ku, the next place to be attacked.





  

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